the other can disappear tomorrow and nothing would change
Not true. People would be living in less fear, and the world would be a far better place.
I’ve heard ICE described as a militia of the unemployed mobilized to declare war on the working class
Your comment made me think of the Zimbardo prison experiment, and how there seem to be some similarities between that experiment and what is happening in US with all this ICE mess.
The money is always there. I spent a decade at a job where they constantly told us there was no money for pay raises, constant pressure on employees to cut or manage costs, shitty schedules, etc.
Then there was a hiring boom. They were throwing money at recruits like crazy. Better pay. Huge signing bonuses that were more than I made in an entire year.
The money is always there. It’s for the shareholders. Not you.
Not that I disagree with the point generally, but there is a difference of scale here.
There are around 22k ICE agents. At 150k, that’s 3.3b for the first year, and then 2.2b in following years.
There are around 4m teachers in the US. To raise them all from 55k to the 100k that ICE agents make (ignoring the hiring bonus) would cost 180b/yr. Two orders of magnitude greater.
I’m not saying it’s not worth it. I’m also not saying that ICE agents are good. I’m also not saying this disparity is justified.
I’m simply saying that the analogy, as given, implies that if we had the money to pay ICE agents 100k+bonuses, then we should have just paid the teachers that much instead. But that’s not how the math works. And just because the argument feels good emotionally doesn’t mean it’s accurate. And the truth shouldn’t need a lie to drive it forward. There are plenty of good, factual arguments to make, and this isn’t one of them.
To be fair, there are plenty other jobs thst could be cut, like CEO of Amazon
Every corporate CEO should be cut… with a guillotine
You are a visionary @[email protected]
Note that the CEO’s also don’t go very far for teacher pay. It looks like a few hundred CEO’s cut would raise teachers pay by ~$100/month. Same mistake: 4 million is a big number to divide by.
How about all the money made by health insurance companies that shouldn’t exist? That’d go a long way toward funding education.
If we believe the internet, all of that is funneled to the CEOs, and so the previous post applies?
(Which seems absurd to me, but maybe the bills are rare enough that this makes sense? Does anybody have data on how big that figure is vs actual cost of the buildings+labor+materials? We could compare to other countries, but then I think we’re seeing a difference in infrastructure, social and physical, more than malfeasance.)
While I’m sure there’s a not-insignificant amount of government grants that go towards CEO pay… they’re not paid directly by the government. That’s an even worse comparison.
A failure to tax them is one remove away from direct payment.
This is true, but the scale goes both ways. For every dollar of public education you get $1+X out. This has been true for the vast majority of public education programs for at least the past half century. So public education is literally a good investment. I’ve never gone looking for data on ICE, but I’d bet good money that for every dollar in there’s a net loss.
In order for that argument to be valid, the country would have to be run as if it could see beyond the next financial quarter.
It is currently being run as if they are selling off parts of a stolen vehicle for scrap money, and maxing out all the cards they found inside.
There are around 22k ICE agents.
They increased payroll by 120% in the last year alone. This does not include private contracts for construction and maintenance of new detainment facilities, coming out of the $45B earmarked by Congress last year.
There are around 4m teachers in the US. To raise them all from 55k to the 100k that ICE agents make (ignoring the hiring bonus) would cost 180b/yr.
$45B -> $180B is not two orders of magnitude.
if we had the money to pay ICE agents 100k+bonuses, then we should have just paid the teachers that much instead
Pete Hegseth is currently asking Congress for an extra $200B in Pentagon spending, after increasing their budget $71B this year already.
We clearly don’t have a problem with finding more money.
We should use symmetric data where we can. We also have lots earmarked and moved around for education, it’s just a much bigger project. The cost comparison for signing bonus of ICE vs educators was apples to apples, and what was literally suggested in OP. Make another post with the honest comparison if you want that to be the standard. Feeds can be both informative and honest if we make them that way.
(Also, only a few thousand jobs are offered the signing bonus. It’s a last mile carrot to get people talking, which we seem to be gullible enough to upvote and spread. I’m not enjoying being an ICE recruiter.)
The cost comparison for signing bonus of ICE
It’s far more than just signing bonuses in the equation
Also, unless I’m mistaken, teachers aren’t paid from the federal budget. I believe that the vast majority of public school funding, including teacher salaries, come from local taxes. In fact, I believe school funding is paid mostly from local property taxes. There isn’t one, national public school system that’s centrally funded. It’s decentralized and can vary significantly from one district to another.
Why let facts get in the way though
Thank you for the lucid feedback. Putting the numbers into proper framing is a good thing. Fuck ICE, the gestapo of this terrible president.
Yeah, this is like the ‘1 billion is enough for to give everyone a million’ - an unfortunate bit of innumeracy. Directions good, but this is still misleading at best.
This is pretty much the same answer I give when people overrract about CEO pay. Sure they are overpaid dicks but their paycheck will often not amount to much when divided among all the employees.
If anybody’s tempted by those numbers, remember Trump’s track record of not paying people.
It’s true. The ice employees have not been getting paid. And the bonus is a joke with so many impossible strings attached.
“Did we say ‘payable in USD’? Sorry, that was a typo. We meant ‘leprechaun gold’.”
Close! We actually meant TrumpUSD, an up and coming crypto coin that is expected to go up in value forever!
Oh! So, basically, digital Leprechaun gold that you must pay for before it disappears and eats a lot of energy on its way out? Shut up and take my money!
Are you under the impression he’s paying them out of his own pocket
Plenty of government people didn’t get the pardons/promotions/etc they were promised under Trump
Not at all. But that “$45,000 sign on bonus?” That was only for experienced, returning agents and only for a limited time (now passed). They didn’t say that anywhere in the advertisements. That proves they’re willing to lie to further their own ends, and nobody’s able to hold them accountable when they do.
The fact that the salary comes out of the taxpayers’ pockets also means it’s contingent on politics, and the democrats are likely to win in the midterms, and they’re starting to indicate that they may actually respond to public pressure and start pushing back.
You only have to look at all the homeless veterans and people killing themselves in VA waiting rooms to see how the empire “rewards” those who serve it. The McDonald’s employee who snitched on Luigi never got the reward they’d promised either.
Sign up, be so hated by the public that you have to hide your face, drag innocent people away to secret torture dungeons, get scammed out of your bonus, and yeah maybe you can get your 30 pieces of silver. But at that point, why not just sell crack? More trustworthy employers and less harmful to society.
This holds true for almost any “modern” and “civilized” country, not just for the United States.
They just tend to dial it up to 11.
This, and also teachers disproportionately consider their job too important to do to quit completely when mistreated.
Which the dystopian profit machine takes advantage of to mistreat the shit out of some of the most important and laudable people in the world.
I have a friend in Kentucky. Lovely lady. We’ve known each other about twenty years now. Long time ago she was a waitress earning decent money but wanted to be a teacher. It was going to be a financial hit (the fuck?) but I encouraged her to follow her dream.
Long story short she lasted two years before being crushed by the machine and quitting.
Yeah, I was a year or so into a job that paid close to 2x when I got my degree and couldn’t justify it. It wasn’t a great or high paying job either.
I really looked into it though and there are a lot of systemic problems with public schools. I didn’t think I’d have the stomach for it. Plus you need another six figure degree to pay for with less money.
Now to clarify, where I live this is because of race. The government has absolutely failed the African American population. The drug war and public schools were all that was really required.
When they integrated the schools, they just abandoned the South and let local and state government handle it. This is the Jim Crow government that requires the national guard to integrate schools.
Now you’ve got a separate but far superior education. That’s kinda been in place for a couple of generations.
Read the books
Kinda hard when the education system fails to teach you how to read.
they are terrified of everything. there’s nothing more affraid in life than a racist right wing fascist turd.
Fear is definitely a reason they love to drive 3-ton trucks to rugged wild places like the office and McDonald’s. I have heard my fair share of rednecks call ANY small or normal sized car a “death trap” or “tin can,” or comment something like “I’d hate to have somebody crash into me in that thing!”
“Winning” in a crash is a big unspoken feature that drives vehicle choice for a lot of paranoid/scared iamverybadass turds. Around me it’s a pretty varied mix of trucks, truck-based SUV barges, and luxury SUVs.
The wealthy aristocracy that controls both parties needs a paramilitary police force in the streets to quell the inevitable uprisings that will occur once enough Americans realize that the aristocracy has dispensed with economic populism and constitutional order
What have y’all been reading lately?
I just finished The Dawn of Everything by David Graeber and David Wengrow, which I thought was an incredible read. I would recommend anarchists and communists (and really everyone) read it for a pre-historic and historic view of social organization and freedom. What I thought was one of the more interesting concepts they developed was that in pre-contact North America, individuals had three essential freedoms that we have either lost or had greatly diminished: the right of movement, the right to refuse orders, and the right to create new social realities. (I’m slightly paraphrasing their exact language here, already returned the book to the library) They also go pretty deeply into the impact Indigenous North American societies had on European Enlightenment thought. If any of that interests you, I highly recommend it.
I also just finished The Serviceberry by Robin Wall Kimmerer, which is much shorter but a very lovely examination of gift economies and viewing nature as a gift economy. Solarpunk people, this is probably up your alley.
Hell yeah I also recently finished the Dawn of Everything and it really blew my mind. Highly seconding it.
Graeber is fantastic. Loved “Debt: the First 5000 years”
I was really bummed to find out he died of complications related to COVID in 2020!
Join ice. Take the money. Be incompetent. Profit
, Pray they don’t come for you when the curtain falls.
i’d rather not risk being sent somewhere and having the guy next to me shoot and kill innocent people. that kind of shit would scar me for life
In developed countries teachers unionize. They have fair wages, ample benefits, lots of vacation. Their job is still very hard but they somehow feel more valued.
Are you not aware of the teachers union in the US?
Teachers unionize, but they can’t strike in all states. In states like Texas, it’s illegal. No collective bargaining power.
https://www.tcta.org/legal-updates/what-happens-if-texas-teachers-strike
How is that not a violation of the first amendment?
No I wasn’t, I’m not from the USA.
You are correct, it’s not even just one there are several apparently. AFT, UFT, NEA… Honestly I’m confused.
I’m glad the USA does have unions. But there seems to be some roadblocks when I read that some teachers are getting underpaid.
In developed countries
This is the US.
You could sign up and gum up the fucking works from the inside.
power always seems to instill a firm belief in one’s own immortality.
It’s always been that way. No money to pay for teachers, no money to pay for universal healthcare, no money to pay for public infrastructure projects…
But will happily burn 100s billions a year on the military and enforcement agencies.
The money is in keeping you down, not helping anyone up.
That may be true to an extent, but pay has stagnated more and more each year.
Adjusted for inflation, a teacher’s salary in 1969 was well over $77,000. Today is at $60,000, with purchasing power being substantially lower.
I learned today that Texas pays a little over $6000 per student to each school. With 30 students in each class, that is $180,000 per classroom. You would think half of that intake would be paid to the instructor. Ziprecruiter says the average wage for teacher pay is around $50k in Austin TX.
