Many people on lemmy.ml deeply respect and admire authoritarian governments and organizations.

Iran, China, North Korea, Soviet Union…

The West has many flaws. But our flaws are nothing compared to these guys.

Iran hangs homosexuals. Iran shot 30,000 people in less than than 2 weeks. The Soviet Union had to build a fucking Iron wall to prevent people from escaping. The Soviets lied about the Chernobyl nuclear explosion. China censors the internet. China wants to eliminate Islam. North Korea is a totalitarian hellscape. Watching anime is a crime.

Why is lemmy.ml so fascinated with authoritarians?

    • Riverside@reddthat.com
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      12 hours ago

      “Everything I consider bad in the world is the fault of those pesky easterners”

      Now please, explain to me how the propaganda apparatus of a decrepit post-soviet nation with an economy the size of Italy has a bigger, more powerful and more pervasive propaganda apparatus than the US empire and the EU together.

      • DarkFuture@lemmy.world
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        9 hours ago

        Now please, explain to me how the propaganda apparatus of a decrepit post-soviet nation with an economy the size of Italy has a bigger, more powerful and more pervasive propaganda apparatus than the US empire and the EU together.

        Easy.

        Propaganda is cheap. Especially in the age of the internet.

        Why build bombs and wage physical war for astronomical amounts of money when you can put some incels in front of a few computers and sow incredible division between the people’s of another nation you don’t like? In that scenario a weaker/poorer nation can absolutely outplay a stronger/wealthier nation.

      • Doomsider@lemmy.world
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        11 hours ago

        Please tell me how a small group of scientologists have extraordinary influence or a little country like Israel does. Let’s not pretend these things exist or that propaganda isn’t incredibly successful.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      18 hours ago

      The Kremlin isn’t why communists exist, communists exist and are growing in number due to the ever-clear fact that capitalism is failing globally.

      • StopTech@lemmy.today
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        6 hours ago

        You mean human societies everywhere are failing and some people attribute that to capitalism

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          5 hours ago

          Nope, socialist countries are showing positive movement and steady progress, and global south countries are escaping underdevelopment traps.

        • Riverside@reddthat.com
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          12 hours ago

          Cool, why don’t you tell us of these options that actually exist and defeat capitalism for extended periods of time in large portions of the world?

          • SleeplessCityLights@programming.dev
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            7 hours ago

            I am not responding and falling into your bad faith discussion, but I am interested in the tirade of a response you are waiting to type out after I say something disagreeable. So enlighten me.

            • Riverside@reddthat.com
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              6 hours ago

              What’s bad faithed about asking for actually existing alternatives to capitalism besides socialism?

              • SleeplessCityLights@programming.dev
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                7 hours ago

                Your response affirms my reason for not responding. People that view the world in a black and white way cannot engage in good faith discussion. You are just waiting for a reason to attack, not to be enlightened.

                • Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml
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                  7 hours ago

                  You’re making shit up and using it as an excuse for failing to offer any response at all, dumb and embarassing

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          16 hours ago

          Kinda? That’s like saying there are many types of feudalism. Feudalism, capitalism, and socialism all describe currently or historically existing modes of production and distribution, but each society itself has its own characteristics based on level of development, the environment, etc. Communism is a post-socialist, global society, so we won’t bother with discussing it at present. Within socialism itself, there are clear differences between how it works in China, vs. how it works in Cuba, as an example.

          What’s common to capitalism is that it’s unsustainable over the very long term, and its contradictions become more apparent and fragile the more centralized it becomes, and it necessarily is always working towards this centralization. Socialism solves the problems with capitalism, and is a marked step forward onto the next mode of production and distribution. This is true in general, but each case in particular will have its own unique characteristics to be considered.

          • SleeplessCityLights@programming.dev
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            7 hours ago

            I have traveled the world and have seen economies of different types function in first person. The only definitive is that the extreme ends of the spectrum have the same result. Scarcity for the common person.

            I have been in a place that did not have any flour for making bread aquirable by the common person, while having the streets full of beggars. And you can’t tell me which system I am talking about.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              7 hours ago

              Systems do not change conditions overnight. Many socialist countries became such a way after being ravaged by colonialism and imperialism, sanctioned and plundered. Socialism does better than capitalism scientifically.

        • Riverside@reddthat.com
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          12 hours ago

          Libs seeing USSR yearly GDP growth slow down to 3% for a decade: communism always FAILS

          Libs seeing capitalism in Europe stagnate for 20 years with ever-worsening living conditions and the approaching threat of fascism: GO GO CAPITALISM!!

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          16 hours ago

          How is the communist position that capitalism is failing a lie? The US Empire, for example, is lashing out violently in order to try to save its hegemonic power. European countries are caught between their dying neocolonial rule and a lack of hard power to enforce it. Meanwhile, socialist countries like China are steadily progressing, and the global south is developing out of the underdevelopment trap the west had caught it in.

          • Frenezul0_o@lemmy.world
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            12 hours ago

            One might also add that Capitalism’s core requirement is a perpetual growth machine, which is just as mathematically and logically absurd as a perpetual motion machine.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              12 hours ago

              Kinda. Production and distribution will continue to advance, grow, and improve in socialism, but what will cease mathematically under capitalism eventually is competition, which itself kills the foundations of capitalism as you can’t really profit that way.

          • BlackLaZoR@lemmy.world
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            14 hours ago

            European countries are caught between their dying neocolonial rule and a lack of hard power to enforce it.

            Where do you found that bullshit? Seriously is this some flat earth conspiracy theory level of idiocy

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              16 hours ago

              The PRC is a socialist state, not a state capitalist state like the Republic of Korea, US Empire, or Singapore. China being socialist has nothing to do with the name of the party in control, and everything to do with the mode of production and distribution in China. Rather than a neoliberal paradise, it’s closer to a nightmare for neoliberals. This editorial from The Guardian explains it quite well, actually:

              But Xi’s support for mixing private and public ownership structures was purely pragmatic. It had value, he said in another forum, because it would “improve the socialist market economic structure.” Xi’s assessment is echoed by Michael Collins, one of the CIA’s most senior officials for Asia. “The fundamental end of the Communist party of China under Xi Jinping is all the more to control that society politically and economically,” Collins argued earlier this year. “The economy is being viewed, affected and controlled to achieve a political end.”

              The party’s overarching aim, though, has remained consistent: to ensure that the private sector, and individual entrepreneurs, do not become rival players in the political system. The party wants economic growth, but not at the expense of tolerating any organised alternative centres of power.

              “[Capitalists] act as if they are being chased by a bear,” wrote Zhang Lin, a Beijing political commentator, in response to these comments. “They are powerless to control the bear, so they are competing to outrun each other to escape the animal.”

              How then, does China’s economy work? Public ownership is the principal aspect of China’s economy. This means that public ownership governs the large firms and key industries, and is what is rising in China, as private ownership is kept to small and medium non-essential industries. No system is static, meaning identifying the nature of a system depends on identifying what is rising and what is dying away. Cpitalists are held on a tight leash, and are prevented from gaining political power as a class. The reason private ownership is allowed at all is because China has very uneven development due to their rapid industrialization, and private ownership does help with filling in gaps left by the primary aspects of the economy like SOEs.

              The form of democracy and the mode of production in China ensures that there is a connection between the people and the state. Policies like the mass line are in place to ensure this direct connection remains. This is why over 90% of the Chinese population supports the government, and why they have such strong perceptions around democracy:

              The Chinese political system is based on whole-process people’s democracy, a form of consultative democracy. The local government is directly elected, and then these governments elect people to higher rungs, meaning any candidate at the top level must have worked their way up from the bottom and directly proved themselves. Combining this consultative, ground-up democracy with top-down economic planning is the key to China’s success.

              I highly recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. Socialist democracy has been imperfect, but has gone through a number of changes and adaptations over the years as we’ve learned more from testing theory to practice. Boer goes over the history behind socialist democracy in this textbook.

              China does have billionaires, as you might then protest. China is in the developing stages of socialism. Between capitalism, which is characterized by private ownership being the principal aspect of the economy and the capitalists in control of the state, and communism, characterized by full collectivization of production and distribution devoid of classes and the state, run along the lines of a common plan, is socialism, where public ownership is principle and the working classes in control. China in particular is working its way out of the initial stages of socialism:

              The reason China has billionaires is because China has private property, and the reason it has private property is because of 2 major factors: the world economy is still dominated by the US empire, and because you cannot simply abolish private property at the stroke of a pen. China tried that already. The Gang of Four tried to dogmatically force a publicly owned and planned economy when the infrastructure best suited to that hadn’t been laid out by markets, and as a consequence growth was positive but highly unstable.

              Why does it matter that the US Empire controls the world economy? Because as capitalism monopolizes, it is compelled to expand outward in order to fight falling rates of profit by raising absolute profits. The merging of bank and industrial capital into finance capital leads to export of capital, ie outsourcing. This process allows super-exploitation for super-profits, and is known as imperialism.

              In the People’s Republic of China, under Mao and later the Gang of Four, growth was overall positive but was unstable. The centrally planned economy had brought great benefits in many areas, but because the productive forces themselves were underdeveloped, economic growth wasn’t steady. There began to be discussion and division in the party, until Deng Xiapoing’s faction pushing for Reform and Opening Up won out, and growth was stabilized.

              Deng’s plan was to introduce market reforms, localized around Special Economic Zones, while maintaining full control over the principle aspects of the economy. Limited private capital would be introduced, especially by luring in foreign investors, such as the US, pivoting from more isolationist positions into one fully immersed in the global marketplace. As the small and medium firms grow into large firms, the state exerts more control and subsumes them more into the public sector. This was a gamble, but unlike what happened to the USSR, this was done in a controlled manner that ended up not undermining the socialist system overall.

              China’s rapidly improving productive forces and cheap labor ended up being an irresistable match for US financial capital, even though the CPC maintained full sovereignty. This is in stark contrast to how the global north traditionally acts imperialistically, because it relies on financial and millitant dominance of the global south. This is why there is a “love/hate” relationship between the US Empire and PRC, the US wants more freedom for capital movement while the CPC is maintaining dominance.

              Fast-forward to today, and the benefits of the CPC’s gamble are paying off. The US Empire is de-industrializing, while China is a productive super-power. The CPC has managed to maintain full control, and while there are neoliberals in China pushing for more liberalization now, the path to exerting more socialization is also open, and the economy is still socialist. It is the job of the CPC to continue building up the productive forces, while gradually winning back more of the benefits the working class enjoyed under the previous era, developing to higher and higher stages of socialism.

              In doing this, China has presented itself to the global south as an alternative to the unequal exchange the global north does with the global south, which is accelerating the development of the global south. China is taking a more indirect method of undermining global imperialism than, say, the USSR, but its been remarkably effective at uplifting the global working classes, especially in China but also in the global south.

              To call China “imperialist” or “capitalist” is to either invent a fantasy of China or to not understand imperialism, capitalism, or socialism. China isn’t a utopia, it’s a real socialist country.

              • deft@lemmy.wtf
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                7 hours ago

                Lotta words to waste anyone’s time. China is absolutely imperialistic you literally quote it yourself talking about the global south. China has capitalist aspects and as time goes on engages more and more with capitalism as you said, because the rest of the world does too.

                I also don’t like capitalism but you’re lying bro. 🤥

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  7 hours ago

                  How do I say China has imperialized the global south? The opposite is true. China has markets and private property with socialism as the basis of the economy and a socialist state.

                  • deft@lemmy.wtf
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                    1 hour ago

                    They haven’t imperialized it, I don’t think that’s really how you even say that, but they engage in imperialism especially in Africa. I think you’re just not willing to admit their behavior is literally by definition imperialism especially because a huge intent is to weaken western influence, the whole goal of imperialism is influence. So if you engage with trying to influence another country, you’re doing an imperialism.

                    China is definitely socialist I’m not denying that, they have socialist structures and aspects. But acting like they’re not imperialistic and don’t engage with any capitalism just isn’t true and they’re things people around here really believe they are and it comes off as either ignorant or like you’re shilling some crap. You know? It’s polarizing to be dishonest.

    • Sektor@lemmy.world
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      17 hours ago

      Back in the day on Reddit it was all about Putin riding a horse and wrestling.