Normally I always forget why I still keep thinking about switching back to Windows. Today was a great reminder. Linux can be frustrating. This post is somewhat about awareness and partly about me learning about other peoples experiences. I updated my CachyOS as usual. There were some system packages upgraded and I got the notification to reboot. Figuring I’d do it later I left after some time and the PC went to sleep. Upon returning the screen stayed black. Even upon forced reboot. Remembering I was using Limine with BTRFS snapshots I tried multiple previous snapshots but to no avail. I remember this happened before. So now I face another reinstall… This and having to dive into the deep end of terminal commands to get drivers, programs or games working can be quite frustrating. I understand why people are turned off and go back to Windows…

Onto NixOS for me. A big dive but it seems very stable which might be just what i need. I feel like the philosophy of NixOS combined with a graphical store to install programs and what not seems like a great solution.

What would your ultimate distro be like?

  • toebert@piefed.social
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    10 hours ago

    I’d make the same point as everyone else - choose a distro that suits your needs better - but it seems already made several times.

    I’ve used Linux both personally and professionally for a long time but I just don’t want to tinker/break my main desktop. I am currently using bazzite, and while it’s not perfect I’ve found it great in the not breaking department. The immutable part takes some getting used to though. The recent drama around it is annoying though.

    I’d be cautious with nix, while it’s reproducible you might end up having to put a lot of effort into making it what you want. If you want that experience then by all means, but it may just frustrate you further if you do it on your main machine.

  • obnomus@lemmy.ml
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    17 days ago

    I know its frustrating when this happens. But there is something called arch-chroot, its a program to fix your messesd up os. New users don’t know about this, but as you keep using Linux, you get familiar to these programs. It takes few mins to fix broken system using arch-chroot. I hopw your system won’t break anymore.

    • BandanaBug@piefed.socialOP
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      13 hours ago

      Thanks! And that’s true. Also part of the beauty of Linux IMO that it actually (almost) always can be repaired. Although it is quite involving at times.

      • obnomus@lemmy.ml
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        10 hours ago

        Thats because it modular, if you don’t like a certain component you can remove it. Like if I don’t like my desktop environment then, I will install another one. If I don’t like the kernel then I can install another one. And the best part is that you can use them alongaide, instead of completely eliminating them.

  • Sunsofold@lemmings.world
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    18 days ago

    This will sound like heresy to some, but get away from the bleeding edge. You probably don’t need the absolute latest version of every little thing. It can feel cool knowing you know how to fix a borked install but actually having to do so sucks. Dump the hype and get to something stable for your daily driver. If you want to experiment, do it on another drive/machine. Building a custom rocketship is cool, but you should probably build it without breaking the truck you use to go get parts.

  • EponymousBosh@awful.systems
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    16 days ago

    I see people recommending Debian but you also said you enjoy tinkering, so I’d recommend SpiralLinux. It’s basically Debian but it uses BTRFS so you can roll back to a previous snapshot if you break something. I don’t think Spiral has updated to Trixie yet so you’d need to manually upgrade but that’s not too big a hassle if you do it immediately.

    • BandanaBug@piefed.socialOP
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      13 hours ago

      Thanks for the tip. Running Bazzite now but your suggestion seems like a great recommendation too. I’ll check it out.

  • GunnarGrop@lemmy.ml
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    16 days ago

    I think NixOS is a superb choice if you have the time and energy to invest in it. I’m currently using Guix System (a GNU fork of Nix) and I’m very very happy with it. Previously I’ve been on openSUSE Tumbleweed because I thought the most important thing for me was btrfs with an easy snapshot system. But then, one day, when I was writing ansible playbooks to configure my OS I realized that what I care most about is declarative configurations. Now I’ve completely stopped using ansible for my laptop/desktop, and just rely upon native Guix configuration. I love it.

    I do still run MicroOS on all of my servers because it “just works” and I think transactional systems are great for servers. Recently, however, I’ve been thinking about trying out NixOS/Guix System as my server OS of choice, but we’ll see how that goes.

    If you’re willing to put in the time, I think you’ll love NixOS.

    Edit: Nix/Guix are also transactional.

  • Phoenixz@lemmy.ca
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    17 days ago

    So first of all, you could likely still access your drives when you boot from a USB. Goes for any OS

    secondly: if you play with fire, don’t complain about the blisters. And yo be clear, with fire I don’t mean Linux, with fire I mean specialty distro

    You need to ask yourself what you want. If you want something shiny and cool that does certain security things that are awesome but not really that needed for the average Joe, then fine, go with whatever.

    I on the other hand need a Linux distro that works, that I can trust. I have been using Kubuntu (Ubuntu with KDE UI) for over the last 20. There are bugs, like everywhere, but bugs like “this little widget doesn’t respond right”, not “oh my OS suicided again”

    • BandanaBug@piefed.socialOP
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      15 days ago

      True. Emergency mode or something similar might also be an option. But a live USB certainly is a good method. It’s just frustrating that it’s needed.

      I don’t see how using an OS is playing with fire. I understand that sometimes comparability issues arise but on the other hand it’s not like I’m on a release candidate kernel or trying to slim down my OS to a single megabyte by removing stuff. Sometimes bleeding edge can actually be needed when installing new hardware. When stuff is released it should just work I think?

      • Phoenixz@lemmy.ca
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        5 days ago

        Linux has emergency modes for booting as well. The old ways would work with run levels, and the newer ways (through systemd) I honestly don’t know. However, a bootable USB is usually the best solution because it won’t boot a drive with a possibly damaged filesystem that needs repairs before accessing it, that sort of stuff. There is a reason why it is a separate storage device to boot from.

        I’m just saying that if you take an experimental or very hard to master OS for your day to day work, or storing your family photo albums, then yeah, you’re playing with fire, because the OS can trip you up in many ways. Linux is great, but potentially unforgiving when you make mistakes. Ubuntu Linux is at the point where normal users need to work hard to mess stuff up, but if you go for gentoo or something else experimental or DIY, then yeah, you better be prepared to take the consequences when things go down south

  • SecondComingOfPheusie@programming.dev
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    18 days ago

    Why sometimes Linux is hard to switch to

    Switching is easy. Sticking to it is harder and involves relearning most of your activities in a new context.

    So now I face another reinstall…

    I’d honestly think that CachyOS was more ‘sturdy’. Though, I suppose it’s curious that you don’t mention anything about your troubleshooting attempts. Beyond your rollbacks in hopes of resolving the issue*. If you don’t like/want to (learn to) troubleshoot, then reconsider if CachyOS is your home.

    FWIW, over (almost) 4 years of Fedora Atomic, I was only once ‘forced’ to reinstall; which happened in the first week (or so). And that was 100% a user error.

    This and having to dive into the deep end of terminal commands to get drivers, programs or games working can be quite frustrating.

    This isn’t recognizable to me. Would you be so kind to clarify/elaborate? Perhaps with an example even?

    I understand why people are turned off and go back to Windows…

    The only time I felt this, was when I just cold-turkey switched to Fedora Silverblue and bashed my head to the wall when trying to implement Madaidan’s hardening 😅. But, again, that was just very naive.

    Onto NixOS for me.

    NixOS is definitely based. So go for it.

    What would your ultimate distro be like?

    Stateless, and hardened AF. So, probably an amalgamation between your favorite security-focused Linux (be it secureblue or Qubes OS) and NixOS for its impermanence module.

    • BandanaBug@piefed.socialOP
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      17 days ago

      Yes you’re totally right. It’s like owning a race car. You have to do a lot of maintenance to it and it will still bite you in the ass but when it works right it’s fast as hell and a lot of fun. But on the other hand: if there’s no downside to built in some failsafes then why not do it?

      • SecondComingOfPheusie@programming.dev
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        17 days ago

        Thanks OP for replying! Though, I’m a little bit confused as you had already replied to this specific comment. Perhaps you meant to reply to this comment instead?

        Regardless…

        It’s like owning a race car. You have to do a lot of maintenance to it and it will still bite you in the ass but when it works right it’s fast as hell and a lot of fun.

        If that analogy was used to describe Arch, then yeah; I can definitely see that.

        But on the other hand: if there’s no downside to built in some failsafes then why not do it?

        So, if you allow me, I would like to slightly rephrase the main question to the following sub-questions (and try to discuss them as we go):

        • What problem are we even trying to solve? Answer: The problem of broken/borked systems due to every-day activities. Literally none of the other systems/OSes in your life do this. Your phone doesn’t. Your console doesn’t. Your non-Linux PC doesn’t. Your car doesn’t. Your TV doesn’t. Your refrigerator doesn’t. You get the drill. So how is it even conceivable that desktop Linux is the only one that hasn’t solved this yet?
        • Why is this even a hard problem to solve on desktop Linux? Answer: Because it allows far more control, agency and ownership compared to all the previously mentioned systems/OSes. Heck, you can just sudo rm -rf / your system/OS into oblivion. It is almost an oxymoron for your system to simultaneously
          • grant you all the freedom to do whatever you want
          • and take away that very same freedom in order to preserve itself
        • What fail-safes even exist? Answer: Below you may find a non-exhaustive list including a short discussion.
          • Take away the freedom of the user 😅. This is literally what both Android and ChromeOS have done. And, to be absolutely fair, to great success. Your grandma wouldn’t care much for the freedom that Linux allows; she is more interested in a reliable system. This is a very effective way to make that happen. As for desktop Linux, I’m unaware of any distros that go this route. The furthest I’ve seen distros go, is that they won’t commit to support all kinds of uses. Which, to be fair, is absolutely fine in my book.
          • Actual attempts to make the system less brittle. This is where it gets a bit more interesting. Desktop Linux shits itself rather easily, honestly. It should be a lot more robust. To give you an example, IIRC, I played once a little with /etc/pam.d and my laptop didn’t boot into the OS the very next time. Like, I get it; it’s important and all, but we should be able to do better than that. While I can’t show you any examples - as I failed to find where I had seen them before - I do know that some existing systems are able to NOT piss themselves whenever an important subdirectory of /etc is absent. Arguably, NixOS provides the best example of this in practice. But I digress…
          • Keeping track of known good states and allowing the user a return to them. Basically, this refers to rollback functionality, but is not limited to them. Other examples include the factory resets made possible by bootc’s install reset and Pop_OS’ recovery partition. A LOT can be said about this and its many variations/implementations, but this suffices for the sake of brevity.
        • Are there any downsides to any of the aforementioned fail-safes? Answer:
          • Taking away the user’s freedom would be like taking Linux’ soul out. This would be a categorical error. So this can’t be done UNLESS the user desires it for themselves. But, as I said earlier, I’m unaware of any distro (besides Android or ChromeOS) that has gone down this route.
          • Making the system less brittle is unfortunately not that easy, it seems. Perhaps systemd can make some changes in hopes of addressing this. Otherwise, it seems that (some) atomic distros are at least pushing changes to this effect. But aside from NixOS, I’m unaware of any that have provided a mature solution. While it definitely fares better than most, it’s not as if NixOS is unbreakable either…
          • Rollback functionality has slowly but surely become a common occurrence on desktop Linux. But, it isn’t sufficient by itself. OpenSUSE basically pioneered this when they launched Tumbleweed, but it became obvious that this wasn’t deemed enough by itself when MicroOS came along. Your experience also confirms this. Hence, this might give a false sense of security. Don’t get me wrong; there’s definitely something brilliant going on here. But, by itself, it has proven to be insufficient.
        • So…, is the if-clause satisfied? Answer: Nope. Hence it should be easy to understand why they’re not doing it. A perfect solution with no downsides simply doesn’t exist.
        • Is all hope lost? Can’t we do anything? Answer: I hope it’s more than clear by now that it’s a hard problem. But, while not perfect, there are some steps one might take for their benefit:
          • Limit change. A broken/borked system/OS implies that it wasn’t before. So, something happened, i.e a change occurred, after which it shat itself. So…, the solution should be rather easy: just make no changes, right? Yeah…, that’s unfortunately not how we use our systems. But, we can limit it; which is where slow-moving distros come in. Downside: They have to move slowly…
          • Compartmentalize. Why should installing a piece of software make changes to your base system? We don’t see this in NixOS. Nor do we see this on Android or ChromeOS. Downsides: Integration isn’t best yet. And, you have to trust more instances, which ain’t ideal for security/supply-chain. But, if you insist, choose your poison:
            • AppImage
            • Brew
            • Distrobox
            • Flatpak
            • Nix
            • Sysext
            • Snap
            • Toolbx
            • … (Etc. You get the drill.)
          • Ensure that every state is a known good state by excessive testing. This is kinda hard to do on your own. But…, what if your (base) system is literally the same as the one tested by your distro provider? And you know that they’re testing it (perhaps even excessively) in hopes that they may find a bug/breakage before it ships to you. This is not 100% fail safe, either. But it’s a lot easier to test than the (effectively infinitely) many permutations allowed otherwise. This is kinda the route some atomic distros have taken. Most notably, Fedora Atomic and its many derivatives. Downstream like uBlue (so, Bazzite etc.) fares even better at this. Downside: I don’t think you can achieve this without going atomic. Which, is absolutely fine for some of us, but -crucially- not for all of us (yet)…
          • Rollbacks. We shouldn’t let perfect be the enemy of good. Combined with (some of) the previous points, this amounts to a reasonably robust system. Downside: Briefly discussed earlier. Refer to that please.

        There’s perhaps more that can be written on this topic. But, I’ve already become tired and this text has already become quite lengthy. If you managed to come this far, thank you! Much appreciated!

        • BandanaBug@piefed.socialOP
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          13 hours ago

          Thank you for your in depth reply! It totally makes sense. I think some distros limit some freedom at first but still allow you to nuke your system if you’d want to although I can’t straight up mention examples.

          There’s always the option to run Debian. Rock solid but as said that might come with the downside that newer hardware isn’t (properly) supported yet.

          As with anything in life everything is a trade off.

  • ☂️-@lemmy.ml
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    17 days ago

    cachyos is not a system for newbies, or absolute stability. nix isn’t it either.

    try fedora, debian, ubuntu, mint or something newbie friendly if you want a newbie friendly experience.

    • BandanaBug@piefed.socialOP
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      17 days ago

      I’d argue that CachyOS is more noon friendly than arch. As would EndeavourOS be. People fail to see my point that sometimes Linux breaks very easily and I’m not blaming Cachy or Arch specifically but a simple update and sleep should not result in a black screen on any OS IMO. It’s just off putting… If this would happen on windows I’d definitely complain too. And there have been plenty of instances where microslop added OS breaking things…

      • Sarcasmo220@lemmy.ml
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        17 days ago

        simple update and sleep should not result in a black screen on any OS IMO

        That’s the thing. Different distros handle it in different ways. Some have the option to do offline updates so it will not actually install the update until after reboot so there is minimal risk of something interfering. That’s why often the recommendation is to try and find one that is more stable if that is what you value more.

        • BandanaBug@piefed.socialOP
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          16 days ago

          I can totally get behind that. But then I’m left wondering: if that approach minimises the risk of interference, then why don’t all distros work that way?

          • Sarcasmo220@lemmy.ml
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            15 days ago

            My guess would be some value stability at all costs, others value user control, and others value uptime.

            • BandanaBug@piefed.socialOP
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              13 hours ago

              Totally agree. But if a change has no downside for any of these I’d say it would be a good idea to implement it.