I’m not holding anything against anyone (nor did I speak ill of anyone) by pointing out the facts of the system… And of course an American like you thinks everyone is a fellow American talking about America.
“Immigrants don’t lower wages” - maybe they should stop accepting lower wages then, and perhaps join the union (no racist unionists aren’t stopping them, you’re speaking ill of people there). They don’t join the union and they accept lower wages because they’re in a more precarious position in the new country, and have less skills to navigate the new languages/systems. Employers can use someone’s status to effect tgeir work visas. Nothing to do with “racist unionists”.
“Without many of them we’d already be fucked” ahh yes, the endless growth model. Funny what you defend of Capitalism and what you reject. You’re really just trying to appear culturally and morally superior on topics like race and gender, whilst still supporting neoliberal Capitalism - and you’re not even aware you’re doing it. That’s what the cultural programming aims for: false consciousness.
Ultimately we’re all humans in a system. Yes we can spend all day mindlessly complaining about the capitalist billionaires or coming up with fanciful ideas of how the world should work. But we have to deal with what is.
I’m sure I’ll continue to be downvoted and you’ll continue to be upvoted because people prefer the hopeful fantasy, to the systems we hate, but that are here to stay.
I didn’t build this world, but I’m not going to lie about how it operates.
Not holding anything against anyone but flouting baseless unbacked “facts”. Now you’re getting even more offensive.
What I provided was only anecdotes. But that’s more than your providing. And you could easily disprove it all by even providing basic facts. Instead of just calling things facts. You know how I know they’re not facts? Because that’s shit I low-key believed myself back in the late eighties as a young sheltered Midwestern teen. It wasn’t true then either.
I get downvoted left and right all the time by statists. It’s just something you get used to. And doesn’t always mean wrong or right. Honestly often it’s the opposite. Real Talk there’s no shame in being wrong. Sometimes it’s a gift and an opportunity. The only shame is in choosing to continue to be wrong or to not question what you believe.
Blaming exploited people for being exploited is victim blaming. I would think that would be pretty obvious why it’s not popular. We should focus on blaming the people doing the exploiting. If you actually want to understand why they let themselves be exploited. It’s not hard. Often being exploited here is still better than the conditions at home. That doesn’t make it right or acceptable.
Yes the system isn’t going to change if we all just passively accept it and the propaganda it puts forth as truth. As you have. Thankfully I think a lot of the kids are all right these days. Not nearly so bad or jaded as my fellow Gen X or their Boomer parents.
Often being exploited here is still better than the conditions at home.
As I already stated. Anyways, I’ll let you get back to your “unions are racist, workers of the world unite, but we do need immigrants for endless growth” bullshit. Very conflicted bullshit which is only propped up by “you’re racist and I’m not”.
Meanwhile migration in a globalized world IS a part of union busting. Migration is used to lower wages (as you agree, I assume from your “being exploited here is often better than at home” comment (which was in my original comment already, and again there I mentioned that “official” migration is mostly done by the more well off - who will still work in slightly worse conditions here rather than fight for better condition back home).
The first thing Musk did at Twitter was to replace the staff with migrant programmers on work visas, even convincing them to sleep in the office.
Class consciousness can only stretch so far when times are tough, what broke the left and allowed Trump’s rise (via enticing the working class right towards MAGA), was leftists of infinite patience and optimism like you. Those whose ideals outstrip reality, and morals outstrip consideration, and now you’ve once again smited “yet another racist” you can ride off proclaiming yourself morally superiority and imperviousness to propaganda.
Yes the system isn’t going to change if we all just passively accept it and the propaganda it puts forth as truth. As you have.
Very good you pompous nonce. Now fuck off on your high horse.
As someone who would tend to identify as a syndicist anarchist. I’m actually quite Pro Union. At least in the local sense. Not in a hierarchical national sense. Perhaps you’d have a better time talking to people if you listen to them. Let them tell you who they are. Rather than making up things to comfort yourself and fit your beliefs. If you’ve been paying attention you’ll note that I’ve not made any assumptions about your personal beliefs. Merely addressing things you’ve actually said. Not making strawman. But addressing you factually. That’s what someone does in a good faith discussion.
That immigrants are being taken advantage of to bust unions isn’t the fault of the immigrants. You’re victim blaming again. Don’t do that. Immigrants are our brothers and sisters as much as anyone is. You want to stop the Union busting. You get them into the Union. You get them representation and rights. Busting busted. Until you do that the bougiest of the bourgeoisie are going to always find another group to abuse in order to hurt workers.
If you’ve been paying attention you’ll note that I’ve not made any assumptions about your personal beliefs. Merely addressing things you’ve actually said. Not making strawman.
Mother fucker, in your very first reply you told me I was speaking ill of migrants. In the very next paragraph of your current comment you’ll tell me I’m victim blaming, when I’ve repeatedly said we’re all humans in systems, and outlined why migrants do what they do.
You’re the one who wants to reward the system with a cheap, exploitable labour class.
Anyways I’ll let you get back to your “anyone I don’t like is racist and hates immigrants. It’s the fault of Unions who I support” (again, your views aren’t coherent).
Anarcho-syndiacalist - “Everyone but me should do more for me”
I’m betting you can’t name, and don’t do anything as part of a syndicate or organized collective. I’m betting you’re an in-name-only ideologue. Good for you, having values is important, maybe one day you’ll try applying them and you’ll see how they’re flawed by practical, on the ground, reality.
Ideology is a luxury meant to cause idiots to debate other idiots. I’m stupid for getting involved.
Because you were misrepresenting and speaking I’ll of them. That wasn’t an assumption.
You know nothing of my views, and I never said you were racist. But if you want to narc on yourself that’s your prerogative. These absurd strawman you keep creating to attack though just screams petty flailing incoherence and disingenuousness.
I’m not holding anything against anyone (nor did I speak ill of anyone) by pointing out the facts of the system… And of course an American like you thinks everyone is a fellow American talking about America.
“Immigrants don’t lower wages” - maybe they should stop accepting lower wages then, and perhaps join the union (no racist unionists aren’t stopping them, you’re speaking ill of people there). They don’t join the union and they accept lower wages because they’re in a more precarious position in the new country, and have less skills to navigate the new languages/systems. Employers can use someone’s status to effect tgeir work visas. Nothing to do with “racist unionists”.
“Without many of them we’d already be fucked” ahh yes, the endless growth model. Funny what you defend of Capitalism and what you reject. You’re really just trying to appear culturally and morally superior on topics like race and gender, whilst still supporting neoliberal Capitalism - and you’re not even aware you’re doing it. That’s what the cultural programming aims for: false consciousness.
Ultimately we’re all humans in a system. Yes we can spend all day mindlessly complaining about the capitalist billionaires or coming up with fanciful ideas of how the world should work. But we have to deal with what is.
I’m sure I’ll continue to be downvoted and you’ll continue to be upvoted because people prefer the hopeful fantasy, to the systems we hate, but that are here to stay.
I didn’t build this world, but I’m not going to lie about how it operates.
Not holding anything against anyone but flouting baseless unbacked “facts”. Now you’re getting even more offensive.
What I provided was only anecdotes. But that’s more than your providing. And you could easily disprove it all by even providing basic facts. Instead of just calling things facts. You know how I know they’re not facts? Because that’s shit I low-key believed myself back in the late eighties as a young sheltered Midwestern teen. It wasn’t true then either.
I get downvoted left and right all the time by statists. It’s just something you get used to. And doesn’t always mean wrong or right. Honestly often it’s the opposite. Real Talk there’s no shame in being wrong. Sometimes it’s a gift and an opportunity. The only shame is in choosing to continue to be wrong or to not question what you believe.
Blaming exploited people for being exploited is victim blaming. I would think that would be pretty obvious why it’s not popular. We should focus on blaming the people doing the exploiting. If you actually want to understand why they let themselves be exploited. It’s not hard. Often being exploited here is still better than the conditions at home. That doesn’t make it right or acceptable.
Yes the system isn’t going to change if we all just passively accept it and the propaganda it puts forth as truth. As you have. Thankfully I think a lot of the kids are all right these days. Not nearly so bad or jaded as my fellow Gen X or their Boomer parents.
As I already stated. Anyways, I’ll let you get back to your “unions are racist, workers of the world unite, but we do need immigrants for endless growth” bullshit. Very conflicted bullshit which is only propped up by “you’re racist and I’m not”.
Meanwhile migration in a globalized world IS a part of union busting. Migration is used to lower wages (as you agree, I assume from your “being exploited here is often better than at home” comment (which was in my original comment already, and again there I mentioned that “official” migration is mostly done by the more well off - who will still work in slightly worse conditions here rather than fight for better condition back home).
The first thing Musk did at Twitter was to replace the staff with migrant programmers on work visas, even convincing them to sleep in the office.
Class consciousness can only stretch so far when times are tough, what broke the left and allowed Trump’s rise (via enticing the working class right towards MAGA), was leftists of infinite patience and optimism like you. Those whose ideals outstrip reality, and morals outstrip consideration, and now you’ve once again smited “yet another racist” you can ride off proclaiming yourself morally superiority and imperviousness to propaganda.
Very good you pompous nonce. Now fuck off on your high horse.
As someone who would tend to identify as a syndicist anarchist. I’m actually quite Pro Union. At least in the local sense. Not in a hierarchical national sense. Perhaps you’d have a better time talking to people if you listen to them. Let them tell you who they are. Rather than making up things to comfort yourself and fit your beliefs. If you’ve been paying attention you’ll note that I’ve not made any assumptions about your personal beliefs. Merely addressing things you’ve actually said. Not making strawman. But addressing you factually. That’s what someone does in a good faith discussion.
That immigrants are being taken advantage of to bust unions isn’t the fault of the immigrants. You’re victim blaming again. Don’t do that. Immigrants are our brothers and sisters as much as anyone is. You want to stop the Union busting. You get them into the Union. You get them representation and rights. Busting busted. Until you do that the bougiest of the bourgeoisie are going to always find another group to abuse in order to hurt workers.
Mother fucker, in your very first reply you told me I was speaking ill of migrants. In the very next paragraph of your current comment you’ll tell me I’m victim blaming, when I’ve repeatedly said we’re all humans in systems, and outlined why migrants do what they do.
You’re the one who wants to reward the system with a cheap, exploitable labour class.
Anyways I’ll let you get back to your “anyone I don’t like is racist and hates immigrants. It’s the fault of Unions who I support” (again, your views aren’t coherent).
Anarcho-syndiacalist - “Everyone but me should do more for me”
I’m betting you can’t name, and don’t do anything as part of a syndicate or organized collective. I’m betting you’re an in-name-only ideologue. Good for you, having values is important, maybe one day you’ll try applying them and you’ll see how they’re flawed by practical, on the ground, reality.
Ideology is a luxury meant to cause idiots to debate other idiots. I’m stupid for getting involved.
Because you were misrepresenting and speaking I’ll of them. That wasn’t an assumption.
You know nothing of my views, and I never said you were racist. But if you want to narc on yourself that’s your prerogative. These absurd strawman you keep creating to attack though just screams petty flailing incoherence and disingenuousness.